00:00:04:10 - 00:00:35:05
Unknown
This episode discusses sensitive topics including emotional abuse, manipulation, coercive control and family cult experiences. Listener discretion is advised. If you or someone you know is affected by these issues, please prioritize your well-being and seek support if needed. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis. Help is available. Call or text 988 or chat. 988. Lifeline dot org.
00:00:35:05 - 00:01:08:02
Unknown
Welcome to It's Your Story to Tell. I'm your host today, Babcock, and I am here with Jennifer Ore. And I am so thankful for her willingness to come on and share her story today. When I first met Jen and we started talking, we were actually in a business networking group and so, so strange that we ended up on the topic of trauma and talking about our stories.
00:01:08:02 - 00:01:59:08
Unknown
But I had never heard of family cults and I was just my eyes were wide open. And actually I started to recognize and see some traits of some things that Jen was sharing in that some families and relationships that I knew about. And I thought, We have to talk about this because I don't think that people really even know what it is, how to identify it, and the implications of living in a situation that you're going to share with us today.
00:01:59:09 - 00:02:34:11
Unknown
Jen So thank you for coming along and sharing your story with our audience and just bringing an awareness to the topic. Yes, of course it is my pleasure and thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. Well, let's jump in. And if you don't mind, maybe just setting the groundwork of what what is a family you call what does it look like when we're talking about this?
00:02:34:11 - 00:03:03:11
Unknown
What were you experiencing and in living through? Yeah, I know. Whenever I tell people I was in a family cult, they kind of are taken aback and like, is that what is that? Is that even a thing? I've never heard of that before. I think that, you know, we often hear about cults and people are very familiar with cult, but when you add family to the beginning of it.
00:03:03:12 - 00:03:36:03
Unknown
So what does that even mean or what does that look like? And who knew there was such a thing? So just to break it down a little bit, you know, a family, Kol, in essence, operates like a cult. The main difference being it is not a organization. It's not a huge group of people. They may or may not have, you know, religious influence within the cult, but in essence, it operates like a cult only.
00:03:36:03 - 00:04:13:10
Unknown
It is within the confines of the family. And the family can look very different. It could just be that household. It could be an extension of the family. And so that, in essence, is what a family cult is Now. And there there's certain characteristics, right, that say that are what make up a cult. And so knowing as well as my family, if anything called, you know, you're looking at these these certain characteristics that kind of define how cults operate and how people within the cult to operate.
00:04:13:12 - 00:04:50:11
Unknown
And that's what what we draw these these characteristics off of. So some of those characteristics just, you know, list them off as obviously there's a leader. Right. So all cults have a head honcho, a main person that is in charge or is leading the group. The same is the case and a family. There's one person that is the leader of the family, one person that everybody looks up to or is, you know, in charge of the family.
00:04:50:13 - 00:05:18:11
Unknown
Oftentimes, these are narcissists and oftentimes cult leaders and maybe often is not even the right word. I think almost I want to say in all cases, I don't know that that's true or not. So I won't say that. But a majority of the time, these cult leaders are narcissists or sociopaths. That is their care, that is their being, and that is their characteristic.
00:05:18:11 - 00:05:47:23
Unknown
And that's how they become in this place of power or leadership is through those narcissistic characteristics and tendencies. And so that is that's one characteristic. They have power over everyone else. What they say goes it's their way or the highway. Now, this is more than just an opinion, right? I know very opinion. Opinionated people out there who it's their way or the highway.
00:05:48:04 - 00:06:15:07
Unknown
This is beyond that. It is to the extent that if you don't believe what they believe, if you don't think what they think, then you are ridiculed, you're berated, you're harshly judged, sometimes even punished for doing anything outside of or thinking outside of the way that they think. And so it's not there is no such thing as agree to disagree.
00:06:15:09 - 00:06:44:08
Unknown
It is you either agree and fall in line or there's consequences. And so that that's the main main difference. Other characteristics of cults that show up in a family cult is an element of indoctrination, right? That one person feels and thinks a certain way that could be religious, that could be simply they have a thought or belief on how tomatoes should be cut.
00:06:44:10 - 00:07:18:07
Unknown
And this this is something I experienced. Right. And so they just have their specific things that they know are just true for them and then they indoctrinate that into all of its members. So whether family members or whether it members of the cult, they have these rules, these ideals that they are trying to teach you for you to believe.
00:07:18:09 - 00:07:49:00
Unknown
And that's the same across the board. Also, another characteristic is isolation. Cult leaders will isolate the members of the group. Right. A lot of these big organizations, we we see complete communities fenced off where all of their members live within a community. They they don't interact with the outside world. They they live next door to each other. They are isolated from the outside world.
00:07:49:00 - 00:08:29:19
Unknown
Oftentimes, right, Internet use is restricted or banned. And the sole purpose of that is to keep them only surrounded by the people that are subscribing to whatever the leader is saying. The same goes for a family cult. The leader in the family is going to try to isolate you from friends, from social media, from the outside world, because the more influence you have from the outside, the more opportunity you have to think differently.
00:08:29:21 - 00:09:07:06
Unknown
Right. And they don't want you to think differently because they want to indoctrinate, indoctrinate you into their belief system. And so isolation is huge. If you are, you know, in a family or in a situation where you are being isolated, you are not allowed to have friends, You're not allowed to go to social events or activities or even within the workplace, maybe you're not allowed to go to work conferences or work related activities, things like that, to isolate you.
00:09:07:08 - 00:09:39:23
Unknown
Another characteristics is abuse. There is always abuse involved. They do harm to them, to their members. All co-leaders do. Now, some of that is more extreme than others. There's, you know, verbal abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse. But on some level there is abuse happening within the confines of that cult. They also discourage individualization. So, like, you're not allowed to be your own person.
00:09:40:00 - 00:10:09:07
Unknown
You're not allowed to you know, it goes back to not having your own opinions and ideas, but you're not allowed to even be you. Anything that differentiates you from somebody else, it's it's not allowed you you look at these big, big cults where they're all wearing the same style of clothes. They all have the same hairstyle. The same goes for family cults, believe it or not, you.
00:10:09:09 - 00:10:38:14
Unknown
You're not allowed to fully express who you are. It is not encouraged. Everybody has to believe the same thing and be on the same wavelength. As far as you know how you present yourself, what you believe, what you look like, even to those minute small things. So that in a very small nutshell, is just how, you know, a family cult, in essence, is just like a normal cult.
00:10:38:16 - 00:11:06:17
Unknown
The only difference is that it's operating within just the family. And I think it's important to to acknowledge that there's overt and covert types of of narcissistic abuse and family cops. And what I what those terms mean is there's the outright, outright cult leader and narcissist that just they're just out with it. They're jerk. Everyone knows they're a jerk.
00:11:06:17 - 00:11:35:01
Unknown
They there's no hiding it. They just they're in charge and you fall in line. And then there's the overt type that they are. They're more manipulative about it to the general public. They're really great and nice and charismatic and fun to be around. And there's an energy around them and they just seem like such a genuine, nice person.
00:11:35:03 - 00:12:03:23
Unknown
And then under the surface, there's all this manipulation happening. And as far as rules go and control goes, they don't outwardly say there's rules. They are unspoken rules. They don't outwardly say you can or can't do something. It is unspoken. You just know under underneath the surface that if you behave or do something a certain way, there's consequences.
00:12:04:00 - 00:12:35:05
Unknown
And when you face those consequences, you don't like them and you do everything within your power to never have to be in that space again. And so a lot of times, you know, I didn't know what I was in. I didn't know that I was in a cult until getting out of it and getting therapy and realizing, you know, the fog lifting that, wow, I was being controlled.
00:12:35:07 - 00:13:12:14
Unknown
And because it's so subtle and it's underneath and you're being manipulated, you think you have all the freedom in the world, but in reality, you don't have any freedom at all. Wow. Well, so for walking a tight, tight knit channel. Yeah. So we we can kind of have an idea as we go through your story just that that background and in it is so interesting how people can just show up in a small group of people you know that wasn't something that I ever had heard of before.
00:13:12:16 - 00:13:46:22
Unknown
But I, in listening to you and understanding it, I can see how it could exist more often than we even recognize. And so what I'd love to ask you is, you know, this is a question that I see people ask, whether they ask it outright or not when they hear these types of stories, like how did you end up in a situation like this and not realize it?
00:13:46:23 - 00:14:17:03
Unknown
Was there something in your past? Was there a bully? Like, how did you end up in this place? And then once we talk about that, I'd love to hear how you realized what was happening and and made a change in that pivotal moment of of moving out of the family. Right. I know it's I asked myself that question so many times.
00:14:17:05 - 00:14:47:21
Unknown
How in the world did I end up here? How does this even happen? You know, I it's crazy. I grew up so my story I was married into I married into this family cult. So I was not raised in this environment and then this cult. And it's I feel for people who are because I feel it's even harder to get out of a situation like this because it's all you've ever known.
00:14:47:23 - 00:15:22:03
Unknown
It's your family. It's how you were raised. And if they're really good at isolating, you know, it's hard to see anything different. I married into it. And so it's interesting because as I look back and and look at how I was raised and the things that my parents taught me, it it's difficult to see, you know, how how I ended up there.
00:15:22:05 - 00:15:44:16
Unknown
Of all the people that you could look at, people who knew me in high school, you know, who knew me growing up and I would be the last person that they would suspect could be manipulated in such a way. And I say that because I grew up, you know, with a dad who raised me to never let anyone walk all over you.
00:15:44:17 - 00:16:14:08
Unknown
You know, you stand up for yourself. You you don't let people take advantage of you. And then I find myself in the situation where that's exactly what is happening. And I was an only child. You know, I grew up very I was very independent. I forged my own way. I went away to college. I went away to Bible school, you know, And so I had all these experiences where I was very independent.
00:16:14:10 - 00:16:41:03
Unknown
I was out on my own. I, I had a good upbringing and raising of not letting people walk all over you. And so I think for me and my story, when I look back and say, okay, well how did how did this happen? How did I end up here? You know, the first key player and that was that I was in love, right?
00:16:41:06 - 00:17:11:07
Unknown
And we all have those wonderful rose colored glasses on when we're first falling in love. And everything is just so great and beautiful and wonderful. I also was living in Seattle at the time, and they were in Portland. And so the very beginning stages of my relationship were in two different states. And so I didn't see or fully understand, right.
00:17:11:07 - 00:17:44:15
Unknown
Everything and how the family operated when I was first developing this relationship. And so there was that element to it. And then, you know, as I spoke of before, this person within the family called that was the leader of the narcissist. She was very charismatic. She was warm, she was friendly, she was welcoming. It was just, you know, the initial interactions with her were fun.
00:17:44:17 - 00:18:18:08
Unknown
And the initial interactions with the family were fun. They did fun things together. They were always, you know, doing going to events and and just laughing together and having fun together. And it just seemed so great. It seemed so great. And it wasn't until I, you know, I started to see glimpses of it. I moved back to Portland when we were, you know, deep into our our deeper into our dating relationship.
00:18:18:10 - 00:18:42:20
Unknown
And so I, I didn't I that relationship was already forming, you know, I was already in love. And so then when I came and moved back to Portland, we, I started spending more time with the family and there were red flags like, I can't deny there were red flags. I did not want to see those red flags as as independent as I was.
00:18:42:20 - 00:19:12:13
Unknown
And as you know, I'm raised in a good home and all of that. I still was very naive. I was young. I was I was in young love and I just didn't know what I didn't know. And so there was, you know, an ignorance about the real world. And I always was one to give people the benefit of the doubt to think the best in people.
00:19:12:15 - 00:19:36:18
Unknown
You know, I had no idea that. And that's not true. I did have an idea that evil people were out there. I didn't know Evil people also still were really nice and fun and and fun to be around. Do you know what I mean? You just you put them in this category of, Well, they're going to be glaringly obvious.
00:19:36:18 - 00:19:59:21
Unknown
I mean, people are mean people and you see them right away and that's just not the truth. And so I just was ignorant to that. So I moved back to Portland and and we were in this dating relationship and the red flags were there. I didn't want to see them. I was in love. I wanted to get married.
00:19:59:23 - 00:20:36:15
Unknown
All of that. Now, the way that this family operated was it was an aunt and it was my ex's aunt. And uncle technically has cousins that because of the age difference, he called them aunt and uncle and it was her three sons, their wives and their kids, and they all lived under the same household. Now, my ex was a part of that household because his dad left when he was young and his aunt and uncle were a part of the of raising him since he was a small child.
00:20:36:17 - 00:21:06:11
Unknown
And so he works at the family business. And it after he graduated high school he just and by staying you know I'm I'm sure that there was a lot of manipulation and and underlying unspoken rules that he was to stay. I do believe that just from my experience. And so he was living there when when we were dating.
00:21:06:11 - 00:21:26:20
Unknown
Now when we were dating, I always made it very clear I don't want to live there as fun and exciting. And I wanted my own space. I'm a very independent person. I wanted us to have our own space, to have our own household and all of that. And that was always the plan. You know, when we were talking, that was always the plan.
00:21:26:20 - 00:21:54:12
Unknown
We weren't going to live there. And when I when he proposed and it came closer to the time of actually getting married, there was a whole series and chain of events that I will not get into right now because we simply don't have time. And that is a whole nother podcast episode. So I'll just, you know, stuff happened that in a sense made it to where we we had to live there.
00:21:54:14 - 00:22:33:13
Unknown
We had to live there. We didn't really have choices. We didn't have options. And so we moved in. And the the crazy part is it's it's that manipulation was there even from day one moving into that house. I did not want to move into that house. And my ex came to me and basically told me that I needed to ask permission and basically position myself to sell myself to be worthy of moving into this house with them.
00:22:33:15 - 00:22:59:10
Unknown
And I was just remember thinking in my head, Are you kidding me? I don't even want to live there. Why am I having to ask permission to live there when we all know she wants us to live here? Why am I asking to live here? She is really the one asking us to live here. But again, manipulation. Let's just twist it like, you know, so there I am, asking permission to live there and being grilled.
00:22:59:10 - 00:23:21:04
Unknown
Well, what are you going to do with your stuff? And how do you know? Just like I was in an interview to be somewhere I did not want to be. So from day one, it was just it was crazy making it. So I, you know, moved in and very quickly it just became really bad, you know, on the outside.
00:23:21:04 - 00:23:59:12
Unknown
It was it was okay. And there was fun things and there were still fun things in the inside. But the isolation started immediately. I was ridiculed for having friends outside. You know, they would lecture and talk about how family is the most important thing and you can't trust anyone out, you know, the outside world. Like you just can't trust people and you don't want them in your business and you shouldn't tell them anything about your family life or your marriage.
00:23:59:12 - 00:24:23:19
Unknown
It's none of their business. They shouldn't be a part of it. Not allowed to do work events. Or I remember one time I my job asked me to go to California to train these these other people that were a part of our company in an another state. And I told them I would not even like thinking anything other.
00:24:23:20 - 00:24:50:14
Unknown
Of course, my jobs asking me to do something, I'm going to do it. Oh, wow. Did I hear about it? I heard about it. It was not pleasant. And then on top of that, I was told how my work really didn't value me. I was indispensable. They could hire someone tomorrow. I wasn't as important as I thought I was because they were asking me to do this work of their I mean, just on and on and on.
00:24:50:20 - 00:25:17:18
Unknown
Just to go do a one day training. Literally one day. We didn't even stay that night. So, you know, isolation from work, discouraged to hang out with anyone. I was allowed to hang out with anyone outside the family. We did everything together communally, you know, even before we got married. Talk about red flags. We never went on a date by ourselves, one not allowed to do everything as a family.
00:25:17:20 - 00:25:56:07
Unknown
We went to dinners together, movies together. Everything is done together. You're not allowed to do it just separately as a couple. Like saying that I just. I can't even believe that I married into that, but that I married someone that I had never been on a date with. Just me and him is just crazy. Anyways, I can remember my cousin coming to visit and being told my own family, my own family coming to visit from out of state and being told, Oh, they don't really want to see you.
00:25:56:12 - 00:26:24:14
Unknown
They feel obligated to see you just because they're in town. So of course they have to reach out and tell you they're in town to meet with you, just completely pitying the entire outside world against you. And I did go I, I pushed against it so much, so much so that I think that that's why I got the brunt of the verbal abuse.
00:26:24:14 - 00:26:57:09
Unknown
I also was the newest one in the in the clan. And so but I would fight against it. Right. My dad told me, you stand up for yourself, you know, And so my cousin comes to visit and I go to visit him, even though she's telling me all these things and then I reap the consequences, right? So I get told, Oh, well, you you're choosing the better party or whatever things that she would say to me.
00:26:57:09 - 00:27:20:02
Unknown
But that night, because I was going to dinner with my cousin, they all went out to dinner, went to a movie, you know, tried to make me feel like I was missing out on what they were doing because I was choosing to spend time with my family. This is a type of manipulation, right? It's not an outward sometimes it's outward, right?
00:27:20:02 - 00:27:47:09
Unknown
There's the outward verbal. Well, but still, there's manipulation. And that's all Your family doesn't actually want to spend time with you, right? Not never in their is you're not allowed to go spend time with your cousin. Right. That outward rule of you're not allowed is not there. But what is there is a feeding in my brain and mind about how my family doesn't actually want to see me or spend time with me.
00:27:47:09 - 00:28:13:00
Unknown
Then we're going to go do all this fun stuff so that you feel like you're missing out so that the next time this opportunity comes up, it will have been so miserable for you. You will choose not to do that again. And that's that's how she did it. That's how she worked. So isolation was very early on after moving in, she wasn't allowed to do pre-marital counseling.
00:28:13:00 - 00:28:59:08
Unknown
That wasn't allowed, heaven forbid, a professional mental health person speak into your life because who I would. Iraq to the most risky, right? Yes. Right. Professional. They know that if someone starts hearing this, that hasn't been brainwashed. Right. So much of what you were saying, even in the getting you to question how your work sees you, is to get into your mind and make you not value yourself, not trust yourself.
00:28:59:10 - 00:29:34:03
Unknown
Like, yes, you start believing everything they're saying. I mean, I remember so, you know, my situation not being family whole so much, but the the abuse, the tactics are the same, you know, or dealing with the narcissistic. It's very textbook, you know. And so but I would be so confused on what is even reality like. And I would question, did I do something to deserve this?
00:29:34:03 - 00:30:24:09
Unknown
I must have like and then I would work so hard to try to not have that happen again. Like, just like you're saying it becomes so painful that you are subconsciously starting to change who you are in order to not experience what you're experiencing. And again, I didn't consciously realize what I was doing. And you talk about like when you it wasn't until you were out of it that you really started recognizing what in the world was really happening there and in it.
00:30:24:14 - 00:30:52:06
Unknown
And that's what makes it so hard to get out of, right? Because when you're in the middle of it, you're so confused right now and then, right, that they play on that confusion. They make it to where you start believing the things that they say about you. I believe, like no one's ever going to want, you know, you'll never have anybody else like all of these different things.
00:30:52:06 - 00:31:19:23
Unknown
And I was like, oh, my goodness, Like, I, I want my family. I want these things, you know? And so they also know how to motivate you by like, what are what is it that you value, what is important to you? And then they like twisted and get in your head. And and it is that is why when people question like, how did you ever get here?
00:31:20:02 - 00:31:41:22
Unknown
It was yes, there were red flags, There were little things, but they were small. They were covert. Like if they just started beating you overtly, you'd be like, Oh yeah, this is not a good this isn't a a good situation. It's that slowly boiling a frog where you just turn up the temperature. You don't even realize you're dying, right?
00:31:41:22 - 00:32:09:06
Unknown
That is what you experience in these types of situation. And so then when you're isolated, there's no one to can speak any other truth into your life, and there's no one to get you out. So yes, that's why people stay and they stay stuck in addition to the fact and I don't know if this was in your situation, but most of the time they control things financially.
00:32:09:08 - 00:32:38:16
Unknown
Yes. So being able to see a way to get out, You don't have a home. Everything right, troll. So how do you even get out? How do you get forward when you're like, I don't have anybody can see what I'm going through. I don't have anywhere to go. And so you, in essence, felt trapped 100%. Yes. You feel stuck and you're told you can't make it on your own.
00:32:38:18 - 00:33:05:00
Unknown
You can't you know, you're never going to be able to survive on your own. And, you know, the financial piece of it, in my situation, all my all my finances were controlled without her ever having access to my bank account. And so it's people are like, well, how you know, that doesn't make any sense. She knew exactly how much I made and she would manipulate ways to get them to get money from me.
00:33:05:02 - 00:33:33:16
Unknown
So we'd go out to dinner and she'd make me pay her bill. Right at Costco was my responsibility as the contribution to the household. So she would rack up this Costco list of things that I needed to purchase. I didn't go to Costco without walking out of there with at least $800 worth of stuff. I was buying Mayo that we already had ten jugs of in the pantry.
00:33:33:18 - 00:33:58:13
Unknown
But that keeps we'll just add it to the list to make sure that that that we're getting all this money out. So not having, you know, control over your finances, they they also that element of confusion and that element of not being able to think clearly in the fog comes from them breaking you down. And that's the same in cults.
00:33:58:13 - 00:34:26:03
Unknown
They do the same thing. And large cults, they break you down physically, mentally, psychologically, so that you can't think clearly. I can remember we went I can't even tell you how long I want to say like almost a year with no hot water. We had no hot water and it wasn't a priority to fix it. Well, of course it wasn't a priority to fix it because she knew she knew.
00:34:26:05 - 00:34:52:09
Unknown
Oh, that's just another way we can make things uncomfortable so that you're exhausted. She had control over what time we went to bed. She would ridicule us if we went to bed too early. Oh, wow. You know, she would just make comments and like you're saying, you want to avoid the comments as small as they are, Right? Because they pile up just one comment over another.
00:34:52:09 - 00:35:16:16
Unknown
Piles and piles and piles and you are just worn out from the second you come home and you don't want to hear it anymore. I don't want to hear how I'm this or I'm that or I'm doing this wrong. I'm cutting the tomatoes wrong, I'm washing too many towels, whatever it might be. It's so exhausting. And so you try to eliminate those as much as possible.
00:35:16:16 - 00:35:45:04
Unknown
But she would make comments about going to bed early. So I can remember I was operating on six or 7 hours of sleep. I do not do well and six or 7 hours of sleep. So you're so exhausted. We didn't eat healthy. She made sure of that. Everyone was obese. I, I gained Β£50 in my pregnancy because, you know, I was feeding to and the baby needed this and the baby needed that.
00:35:45:04 - 00:36:10:01
Unknown
And that's all you're eating. That's not healthy. You need twice as much food, whatever. It's like just so unhealthy. You know how you feel when you're eating like crap and you don't feel good about yourself. Even down to the clothes that I wore. What you know we had to do little fashion shows of the clothes that we were going to wear, and she got to pick and choose if it looked good on us or not.
00:36:10:01 - 00:36:34:23
Unknown
And if she didn't think it looked good, we didn't get it. I felt so in the outfit that I wore. We even had matching outfits. All us girls would have the same shirt like just crazy, crazy, conforming, you know, making you feel like crap. She told me I need to dye my hair. Those of you that are watching the video, I have red hair.
00:36:34:23 - 00:36:58:14
Unknown
Oh, heaven forbid. I have beautiful red hair. Now, we're not in that brown, you know. So I did my hair. Just anything to get you to not be you, you know, And they just they just beat you down and make you feel gross, feel tired, exhausted, you know? And it does you don't you don't see a way out.
00:36:58:17 - 00:37:25:10
Unknown
And for me, I can remember sitting on the toilet bathroom, this is my defining moment of I need to get out of here. And I was just sitting on the toilet sobbing. There's no privacy. You know, you're not the only place you can go where someone won't question you. Is the bathroom sobbing on the toilet saying, Lord, get me out of here.
00:37:25:12 - 00:37:52:23
Unknown
Get me out of here. I need out. And I, I always like to say like I never fully drank the Kool-Aid, know I always had one foot in, one foot out. There was lots of really fun, great things that we did together as a family. Stockholm Syndrome. Very real. I this woman, I loved her dearly. She verbally abused me every day and I loved her.
00:37:53:01 - 00:38:20:00
Unknown
Like it's crazy to say, but there was there was. I still mourn the loss of the other women in that house. One of them also got out. And I am so grateful for that because we're connected. Again, I mourn the loss of the kids in that house. It is not easy. You do love these people and that makes it that much harder to leave.
00:38:20:02 - 00:38:45:00
Unknown
It makes it that much harder. You have that element. But I came to a point where my marriage was failing. I had suspected that my ex was cheating on me and he was I didn't have proof of it at the time, but you just, you know, I knew. I knew he was cheating on me. My marriage was unraveling and my marriage is why I was there in the first place.
00:38:45:02 - 00:39:16:14
Unknown
My marriage is why I ended up in this household. And I just started asking myself why am I doing here? Why am I still here? This is awful. I need to get out. And I no longer had my marriage holding me there because that was also unraveling. And so I came to a point where I told my ex, I said, I have to get out.
00:39:16:16 - 00:39:37:06
Unknown
I have to get out of here. I don't know if you're coming with me or not or what's happening, but I have to get out now. He also to didn't want to be there. And so he was like, yes, let's get out. And you know, thankful for me. He took the brunt of the decision. He told the family that it was all his decision.
00:39:37:08 - 00:39:56:23
Unknown
They knew better. They saw right through that and knew that I did not want to be there. But he he took the brunt of that. We we had a place rented for an entire month before we before he was able to gather the courage to tell her it was just sitting there empty for a month because it was so difficult.
00:39:56:23 - 00:40:20:00
Unknown
And even the financial piece you spoke on, I had to basically save 20 bucks. 20 bucks, 20 bucks a month aside in order to pay the first down on an apartment, you know, she knew where my money was going and how that was happening, you know, And so I had to, like, put a little bit aside, a little bit aside.
00:40:20:00 - 00:40:40:05
Unknown
Then I had to look for places to rent on my lunch break, you know, because if I was one minute late from work, she's calling me. Where are you at? Why aren't you home yet? And I wasn't allowed to go do anything outside of the family. So the only time that I had to look at apartments was during my lunch break.
00:40:40:05 - 00:41:04:03
Unknown
So I'd like, scramble and just look for places close to my work. You know, that was that was the only option I had. So I finally got enough. And the crazy part of all of that is, at any given point, I could have just packed my bags, driven over to my parents house that was 30 miles away, knocked on the door, said, Mom, dad, I need help.
00:41:04:03 - 00:41:29:19
Unknown
I'm out. I can't do this anymore. Like that didn't even cross my mind. I was so foggy. I was So they they didn't know the extent of what was going on. They knew stuff was off. They. They never saw me. You know, I met this family and fell off the face of the earth. And they had a grandson that they saw once a year at Christmas, you know, So they knew something's not right.
00:41:29:19 - 00:41:49:02
Unknown
This isn't normal. This isn't okay. But they didn't know how to help me, you know, And but at any given point, I could have just shown up on their doorstep. But I was so foggy. So, you know, just that wasn't even I didn't even think of it as an option, you know, I needed to get out on my own.
00:41:49:02 - 00:42:11:20
Unknown
So I raised a little bit of money. You know, at this point, I'm having medical issues. I'm having heart palpitations, high blood pressure. That's Another thing that drove me to that decision of leaving, I'm not okay. How like I'm not healthy. You know this the stress and the pressure of what is going on in this household every single day.
00:42:11:20 - 00:42:35:09
Unknown
The anxiety that I feel driving up to the house is. Incredible, Incredible. I can't do this anymore. You know, you just come to a breaking point of I'm either going to have a nervous breakdown or I get out. That's one of the two and I need to figure it out. So we eventually went, you know, rented this place.
00:42:35:09 - 00:43:10:06
Unknown
And luckily for me, both me and my ex left together and therefore I was able to leave with my children or my child. I only had one child at the time, and I thank God every day for that. I am so grateful that I left when I did and that my son got out of that when we did because he doesn't really remember a lot of it and he doesn't know really what happening, you know, around him.
00:43:10:08 - 00:43:39:14
Unknown
But the kids that are there now, they're they're suffering, they're suffering mentally, They're suffering physically. And they're not okay because of what what they've been living in. And I am just so grateful. But it was it was a long, hard process getting out. And one of the other wives that did get out, you know, her kids are still there.
00:43:39:14 - 00:44:04:07
Unknown
And I can remember the narcissist, you know, telling me so clearly just in passing and in, it's like, why? Why are you even telling me this? Where is this even coming from? I've never expressed leaving, but she made a comment to me, If you ever leave, I will make sure your son does not go with you like this threat.
00:44:04:09 - 00:44:46:01
Unknown
You know, if you leave your your your son and staying here with us, you know, like what? And so like I said, luckily we left together and my son came with me and we were able to start to rebuild our lives from there. So, yeah, you know, for the last year, I think it's important to share that the process of leaving often times takes a lot of planning.
00:44:46:03 - 00:45:21:06
Unknown
You have to do it safely, right? And to get things set up because of the amounts of control that are happening. And so being really aware of protecting yourself, being safe, whether you know, you luckily your husband at the time went part of that process that allowed you that. You know, for me, I had a domestic abuse topic.
00:45:21:06 - 00:45:47:06
Unknown
It and I wouldn't have been able to do it because I had left many time and I came back because of, you know, different financial things or threats with like, oh, gosh, my daughter, you know, what's going on with her. I don't want to leave her in that situation. You know, all of these different things that you have to think about.
00:45:47:08 - 00:46:26:01
Unknown
And so getting help and reaching out to someone like you were saying, you know, you did reach out to your parent. You know, this is not something that we can go out alone. It's so complicated and there is so much fog that goes along with it that any support is really key to this process. And luckily, you know, at the time, your husband was willing to, Yes, support their kind of take on that role and help get you out of it.
00:46:26:03 - 00:46:56:15
Unknown
But you still needed the support in order to do that. You wouldn't have gotten out of it, likely with your son if. Yeah, and even yeah, and even after we did get out because of the way that we left together and we're still a part of the family, I she was still controlling me from afar and so I was still being controlled by her for about about a year I think, until I did get other help.
00:46:56:17 - 00:47:24:22
Unknown
It wasn't until I got into counseling and started getting mental help that I started to unpack and realize what I was in and I can remember my counselor telling me, you know, you don't have to go to their Thanksgiving. And I looked at her and I was like, You know, I understand. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do have to go to Thanksgiving.
00:47:25:00 - 00:47:53:17
Unknown
And she said, You don't you actually get to make that choice for yourself. You get to choose. And it was like mind blown. What I get to choose, I get to have an opinion. What is that? I don't even remember what that is. And my dad was sick at the time and my mom would have been left home alone for Thanksgiving with my dad in bed, sick like sick health wise.
00:47:53:17 - 00:48:21:09
Unknown
He had was had congestive heart failure and I was going to do that. I was going to leave my mom home alone for Thanksgiving, to go spend Thanksgiving with their family because that was what was expected of me. That was what was required. And when my counselor gave me this permission that I didn't know I needed, that I got to choose, I, I walked out of that counseling session.
00:48:21:09 - 00:48:48:07
Unknown
I drove home sobbing and laughing at the same time. It was like it was cracking me up. I was laughing out loud while crying at the thought that, Oh my goodness, what I can choose, I can be free of this. And let me tell you, I got a phone call. I heard all about the fact that I didn't show up for family Thanksgiving Thing.
00:48:48:12 - 00:49:11:06
Unknown
And that was the last time I spoke to her. After that, I went no contact and best decision of my life, and that's when I actually broke free from the control was by going no contact. But I would have never gotten to that place if I had not gotten help. Right. I was still being controlled. I was still being manipulated.
00:49:11:06 - 00:49:35:05
Unknown
I still had her in my ear dictating my life from afar. And it wasn't just because I didn't live in the house, didn't mean that she wasn't still having me running errands, telling me where I was going to church, telling me I had to come to family Thanksgiving. You know, it wasn't until I got help and realized, oh, my goodness, this woman doesn't have to control my life.
00:49:35:07 - 00:50:14:06
Unknown
I get to make my own decisions. That's when the freedom came and I was able to break away from it. Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of times in these types of situations with the narcissistic personality and sociopath characteristics, the only way to break free is to go no contact because they are so manipulative that there and there is no respect.
00:50:14:07 - 00:51:15:04
Unknown
Were boundary is not you can't have a relationship with someone like that because there is no relationship. Like you said, it's your way or the highway. It's only their turn and that is not a relationship. That is somebody who is controlling you and you are there for their benefit in their benefit alone. So if you find yourself in a situation where you can't say no, where you are so exhausted jumping through every hoop and there is no cooperation or collaboration or meeting you in the middle, giving to you, sometimes it's going to be really important for you to start asking yourself questions, you know, just like you were saying as you were sitting there on
00:51:15:04 - 00:51:41:15
Unknown
the toilet and you're crying and you're asking question like, how do I get out of here? You know? And as you start accepting the reality, you know, that's what's really hard because you don't want to admit, especially, you know, I'm very much like you, very independent, grew up in a home that I wouldn't have expected to find myself in these situations.
00:51:41:15 - 00:52:19:15
Unknown
So there was a lot of shame. There was pride that I didn't really even want to admit the reality of where I was. But that denial plays to the benefit of the abuser because they're going to capitalize on that. And then you can't ever change anything you're not willing to acknowledge. And so when you start getting honest, that most often comes in a very broken place.
00:52:19:17 - 00:52:59:03
Unknown
That is where the journey to something different can can begin. And I would just encourage you, if you are there, is to look for some way to get the support that you need because you won't be successful going at it alone. That's why in the domestic abuse world, it's about, I think an average of seven time someone attempts leaving because it is so, so hard to break the habit and pattern.
00:52:59:05 - 00:53:36:22
Unknown
Our mind is such a powerful thing and it can work in our favor, but it can also work against us because we develop these ways of thinking and responding and it takes a lot of effort to change those. And like you said, you were so exhausted, you weren't sleeping good. You had all of these health things. Well, the last thing you're going to be able to do in that situation is to start taking on more things and more work in it.
00:53:36:22 - 00:54:20:13
Unknown
And it's so hard, so first and foremost is getting support and starting to do things to take care of yourself so that you can have the energy and the ability to think through what if, what do you do next? So I really appreciate you kind of walking us through your journey of how you even got into this situation and what it looked like, where you had the pivotal moment and how you started to plan for your escape from this situation and then how you began that healing process.
00:54:20:15 - 00:55:03:12
Unknown
So tell us a little bit about now that you have navigated through this. Like how are you using all of this hard to to make a difference in your own children's lives or your community? Where what is it that you dream of, of doing shared a little bit about me or about it with me before. And I just love when people start taking everything that they learned in the hard to make a difference so that others can can benefit from their learning.
00:55:03:14 - 00:55:39:23
Unknown
Yeah, I am a firm believer and beauty out of ashes, and so my plan is to take all of this experience and make as much beauty out of it as I possibly can. And so I know, you know, sharing my story on podcasts like this and just even with people and random conversations, bringing awareness, bringing light to, you know, that these manipulative people are out there.
00:55:40:05 - 00:56:15:04
Unknown
Right? And there's there's also healing and walking with people who have similar stories and similar similar journeys. And so sharing my story, being open, you know, not being afraid to share that is definitely one way. Even in small little, little things, like even my business, I'm an interior designer. I own my my own business and. Within that business, my tagline, the name of the company is Studio Red.
00:56:15:04 - 00:56:40:22
Unknown
My tagline is respectfully expressing you through design and the experience I had of not being able to be myself, right? Having to change the style of my glasses, take my nose, ring out, being ridiculed for having tattoos, type all the things, dyeing my hair brown, all the things that were changed about me to make me feel like I wasn't allowed to like what I liked.
00:56:40:23 - 00:57:12:04
Unknown
It made me realize that, you know, we are so we are all so unique and we all have different preferences and we all have different likes. And so even down to my design business, it is extremely important to me that my clients, the home that we are designing for them, reflects them, their style, their characteristics. It's not about me, it's not about what I like.
00:57:12:04 - 00:57:50:11
Unknown
It's not about being the designer and designer knows best now it's about the client. At the end of the day, it's their home. They're living in it. They need to feel comfortable. And so knowing and acknowledging that we are all uniquely made and we all have opinions and we and to respect that for each other and not think that we know best or one way's the right way, even those little things, you know, I have implemented in my life and wanted to change in areas my long term goal.
00:57:50:13 - 00:58:37:07
Unknown
What I would love to do is to be able to provide housing for people who are getting out of this situation. You know, I looked and looked and looked for an apartment that I couldn't afford, and it was so difficult and it was really hard being able to pay that rent. And so I don't I want to be able to provide some way or partner with a nonprofit that is already doing this, to provide that housing, to provide that transition, that also provides resource shares to people that get them into counseling, that gets them into reading books and realizing they're not crazy.
00:58:37:07 - 00:58:58:20
Unknown
It's the number one thing did is I read all the books, you know, and I was like, Help lift that. Oh, wait, okay, I'm not crazy. This is not okay, you know, because you're just in such a fog. And so having an organization that, you know, helps people who need to get out. Okay, let me help you get out.
00:58:58:22 - 00:59:45:09
Unknown
Here's here's a house, here's connections, here's literature, here's all the things you know, to help start to build that foundation of rebuilding their lives. So that's that's my big my big goal later on down the road. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm excited about it. But I think I love that you talk about being vulnerable. That's I think what this community is all about is just allowing people of faith to be honest and vulnerable and recognize that, you know, you can change your life, you can rebuild your life.
00:59:45:11 - 01:00:27:08
Unknown
And to bring hope by just allowing people in to our stories and seeing the journey so that they can. When you're so desperate and you're in such a dark place, it's hard to believe that something else is possible. But by people being able to hear stories of how people moved through those hard things, it's so empower. And so I just honor you for being willing to be a light into someone's darkness and for just sharing your wisdom.
01:00:27:10 - 01:01:05:05
Unknown
You know, I think if you listen to our podcast, there are so many things that are just the same things that are being said over and over in different scenarios. And it's important to have immunity. It's important to get carried and read and understand so that you can have more clarity because clarity will help to calm that chaos in your mind and allow you to move forward and then be compassionate with yourself, you know, learning who you are.
01:01:05:05 - 01:01:33:01
Unknown
I love your tagline and how you are using that even in your business because it is so important to rediscover who are you, what are your values, what do you want so that you can build a path from where you are to where you want to be. And it's not a one size fits all approach because of our weaknesses.
01:01:33:01 - 01:02:15:02
Unknown
And you did such a beautiful job highlighting that. So thank you again for joining me today. And you guys, we will link you to Jen's business studio. Read. I'm going to ask her to share if she had any books that really stood out. So make sure you check the show notes and if you need to get in touch with someone to talk about your situation, I am happy to put you in contact with Jen or I'm here, one of our coaches, to help you as you're maybe looking at your life and say, Is this happening to me?
01:02:15:04 - 01:02:47:18
Unknown
We want to be there to support you. You are not alone. And so please reach out. And even if you're not this area, we work with people all over the country and we will help you find the resources that you need, even if it's not to be coached by one of us because we are here wanting to see people be able to break free and become their most amazing, authentic selves and live a purposeful life.
01:02:47:20 - 01:03:00:12
Unknown
So thank you for listening today and we look forward to seeing you back next week or another inspiring story. So have a great week and we will see you soon.
01:03:00:12 - 01:03:02:03
Unknown
And.
01:03:02:03 - 01:03:27:22
Unknown
This podcast is intended only for educational, inspirational and entertainment purposes. The purpose of this podcast is not to replace the counsel of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. If you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis. Help is available. Call or text 988 or chat. Nine. Eight. Eight. Lifeline Talk.
